Hey garwulf and my fellow hunters
recently ive been intrigued by marskman. i used to be beast mastery during the days of when it pulled top dps in raids and then converted to survival when it pulled way better dps. ever since then ive been survival and i have never touched the marksman tree. after trollin the forums one day i noticed that marksman can be a dps upgrade after you get so much arpen but none of the posts could agree on a point where switching to mm would benefit more. so i just want to know from a master marksman when is the best time stats wise to switch over to marksman for the best dps increase.
July 14, 2010
Hey Emmet, your topic interests me because I kinda followed the same path. I loved BM so much and never wanted to change, but one day I changed to SV and after I got used to it I really enjoyed it and didn't want to change. Well then I started seeing all this stuff about MM and I felt the same way, I like SV and I don't want to change. Well that didn't last either and I can tell you now that I've played all three specs finally. Better late than never.
Either way, I switched to MM about two months ago and my initial thoughts on it were that is was awesome for heroics because of how smoothly I felt it played. After getting used to the spec and realizing that having to move locations of my hunter due to things like boss whirlwinds or boss aoe damage spells didn't affect my DPS the same way it did on my SV spec I began to play it a little more. I couldn't personnaly tell you what my ArP was at when I decided to try MM out, I want to say it was low. Now it's a little higher, like 543 I think, but needless to say the damage output for me on both specs is only about 300 to 500 DPS apart and I've itemized my gear to be optimal for playing either spec on the fly depending on whether the AP buff or the replenishment buff is needed more.
anyways, I checked out your armory and I think that you're in a fine position to go ahead and try out some version of the 7/57/7 spec. I would advise buying dual spec and trying it out that way, and if you don't like it you can just change back and make the other spec your PVP spec if you're in to that.
One thing I noticed is that you have a lot of hit and you may find a benefit from reitemizing and taking a trinket downgrade to something like the MoT or even the one from non heroic Trial of the Champion, the banner of victory I think is what it's called. Just a thought, my internet is a little slow where I am but if I see anything else I'll give you another shout…
July 3, 2010
The best advice I ever received concerning the armor penetration rule of thumb for Marksman hunters is to recognize that it's a two-step process. It is not cut-and-dry like some of the other classes. Until I hit around 450 arpen, I kept Arcane Shot into my rotation. It would not be until around 850ish ARP that I would even consider dropping my agi gems for ARP gems, enchants, and food/flask buffs. I've tested it repeatedly at femaledwarf.com, and gotten similar feedback among other hunters here, and on my home server.
You are asking a slightly different question, I believe, and when to switch from Survival to Marksman and at what gear level, is that correct? Like Helz suggests, I think you just have to try it out, and see. However, before you do, drop a lot of the hit (I think you can go down to 263/8% rating) and move your stam/agi gem in your helm to a +10 All Stats gem. Get the JC neck and possibly the ring (not sure about it compared to the Band of Stained Souls.) Moving your leather pieces to mail will also help lower your hit rating, and if you move to Marksman, you will need the intellect a lot more (to me, it's a mana-intensive tree.) Enchant yourself for haste and agi, get some Iceblade Arrows if you can, and test it out on the heroic test dummies.
I have also heard another hunter suggest that once your weapon moves into the 235+ range, and has a decent amount of haste and agility, then it is time to consider the switch.
I hope that helps. Sometimes, I think, the most fun for me as a hunter, is just talking with other hunters on testing out new things!
July 14, 2010
Niika is absolutely right, you only need to have 263 hit at a minimum to reach the 8%. Now being a dranei and talents make things slightly different, but if I remember correctly, your pet only gets your hit, not the talented hit and since you can never 100% rely on a space goat being in your group you always want to get as close to 263 as possible. of course, what you'll notice as you get higher level gear is that it's increasingly harder to actually drop hit. it seems to come from everywhere once you start getting ICC level gear.
One thing that Niika said that I would like to comment a little differently on and may help both you and Niika out is that when I switched to MM I wasn't in that much MM gear and my ArP was around 300 i think. I tried Arcane shot at first, but I noticed that just shifting to high level MM rotation worked out much better and my DPS actually gained by dropping arcane shot. At that point I only used arcane shot when I was on the move or had a lack of anything else today. Honestly though, if you're not moving casting steady shot is the way to go for the Improved proc. and then when it does proc, you don't want to waste that on arcane, you want that proc to go chimera if at all possible. and if chimera is on cooldown, then you want it to go aimed shot. try the rotation with arcane and without and see what you think, let us know…
One other note, I did some reading on this and even if you were to switch to ArP gems once you get to a high level of gear, ArP only affects your auto shots and I believe steady shots. In both cases, you need to be not moving. where as agility scales and affects everything. my personal opinion and from what I've seen in ICC and heroics and such is that there is always some amount of movement where you have to fire an instant shot. I like the idea of the ArP gems, but they scaled back the DPS increase from them and I just don't think it's worth the gold to change to all ArP gems. it's especially not worth it if you're playing both SV and MM and have to switch back and forth between the same armor sets. that's my two cents on ArP…hope it's worthwhile…
Thanks for the imput guys, i really appreciate it
The problem ive been trying to solve for awhile is drop my hit. i have some hit gems i can easily get rid of but most of it is coming from gear that is hard to replace or make equal to. i just did 10m icc today and being the only hunter i got some nice loot. i checked my stats after equipping all my gear and its at like 13% which is insanely high. all the icc gear seems to have large amounts of hit and its hard to get rid of it without losing some of the other stats vital to dps. i think i will buy dual spec and fix some small things up and refer back to you guys with my dps change.
July 3, 2010
Grats hun on the loot. Will be awesome once your armory is updated so we can see the changes as well. Remember, even a low level enchant is better than no enchant, if it's the right one. I think once you move from leather to mail, you will see it easier to drop hit as well.
Helz, I suck at drops. My ArP is back in the toilet, so I'm back to adding arcane into my shot rotation. I also dropped it from my rotation, but it didn't make a difference for me personally until I was around 400-450 passive arpen. I recently went from 483 back down to the low 300's, and was like ARGGGGH!!! STEP BACK! I have to Arcane again!!! Yet i was much higher for most of the fights, so was pretty happy.
Then Zod's dropped and I actually won a roll and was in pig heaven. I guess I don't mind if I have to add arcane if my dps is up overall.
If you want to try MM to see what it's all about, then by all means go for it. If you want to use the best DPS build for your gear level, then stay put. You'll pump out more damage as a Survival hunter with your current gear. Your spec is perfect by the way.
MM won't shine as much because you're using a 187 DPS ranged weapon and you have only 255 Armor Pen. MM works best when you can dish out a lot of physical damage, ie: using a 225+ DPS weapon, along with 400-500 armor pen.
Now that's not to say that a skilled Marksman couldn't out DPS a SV Hunter using the same gear, it's just that for most hunters, SV would be the way to go with your gear set. SV doesn't need a lot of armor pen and it isn't as reliant upon a high DPS weapon. The bread and butter of SV's damage is pure attack power based fire damage.
Marksman is an upgrade in DPS at the higher gear levels, but your armory shows you nowhere near where you need to be in order for it to be a straight boost to DPS. You also need 2 pcs of T9 in order to get the most from it, which you do not have.
My advice would be to try MM out first hand. You may find that you like it, and it may feel more natural for you. Spreadsheets are poppycock unless you can execute properly. If MM feels better and you're able to perform better in that spec, then yes, it would be a DPS upgrade.
The most solid advice I can give is to use the spec that you're happiest with. You'll not only have more fun while playing, but you'll also be more apt to improve if you actually enjoy what you're doing.
In closing, SV will still provide you with the most damage possible, but by all means experiment.
…and for the love of Pete… don't go nutso and start gemming all armor pen. So many hunters think that's the way to go just because they hear that MM armor pen builds put out the most damage. This is true, but only once all the pieces are in place. You're quite a ways away from that, as am I.
Good luck and most of all, have fun.