Simple fact is, there is a line in which it is acceptable, to me, for someone to be bad enough for me to actually call them "a bad". Having them being able to outdps my pet is that line. I do not feel that is too much to ask.
I guess you guys don't understand how bad one has to be for this to actually happen and merit telling one he is bad:
And how does someone improve if they don't know/wont accept they are bad? That is the first step, however mean it sounds, I will tell them where to find the information to improve if they ask, they don't, they just kick me for calling them bad instead of realizing "Woah, this guys pet is outdpsing me, maybe he IS right?"
Okay, time for the old man in the group to lean on in…
Calling somebody names, is not ever likely to have them seek your advice. Especially if you're using party chat to do it.
How about a "… Not sure if your realise, if you xxxx and then yyyy" I think you'd see a great improvement in your dps. If you want some help, let me know…"
Now, how many readers would respond to that over "you're bad!"
I know my usual response to anything like "You're bad" is "STFU and play your own game!" even when it's not directed at me.
Bandet, you may well be the most skilled player on your server, your battlegroup or the whole damn game, but nobody will care a hoot if you act like a prick about it.
The thing is, (I'm not trying to be arrogant right now, just setting a background to give some context to my point) I AM a very good player. I didn't just wake up one day and log into wow and hit level 60 in 5 seconds. I became a very good player over years and years of playing many games, and multiple years of competitive play as a hunter. I spend a lot of time researching my class and others via the internet, or personal experience. Anyone can very easily see how bad I was at 60 compared to now watching some of my videos, (Of course, most people were worse at 60 than, no one had as many years of experience). To be a competitive player, I also have to research all the OTHER classes that I don't play to understand how to counter it, or how to modify my play to complement it, so my knowledge is not limited to hunters.
That being said, anyone with a large amount of game knowledge(And I sure do) that plays the game, can literally see 90% of players doing SOMETHING wrong. I am not trying to be elitist or anything, it is just true. Whether it is one talent point that could grant a dps increase somewhere else, a gem that could be swapped for a better bonus, a profession that does not provide as much, an incorrect rotation, an extra percent of hit that can be reforged, a poor glyph choice, a pet that could be swapped for a more useful buff, the list is nearly endless.
The average player is not expected to know all of the perfect choices, and an experienced player cannot be expected to help everyone they see, it is simply too large a burden, and you might expect I have a LOT of opportunities to help people who are doing something wrong.
You would be correct, I do try to help people improve, that is why I am a frequent forum goer to the official (when I had an account) and to other various forums, like this one, I even had a blog at one point with in-depth guides on hunter strategies. A regular forum goer already made the active choice to improve themselves, by talking with other people, as asking anything in trade chat generally accomplishes slim to none, and you could tend to bother people by asking them in-game as they might be busy doing something. Also, it is much easier for an experienced player to help via forums, as they can post information which will stay there forever and help anyone who chooses to find it, instead of just one person at a time.
Because of this, information is simply NOT hard to find. Google "how2hunter" and you will probably find a pretty clear guide on most aspects of the class. Bottom line is, to play this game on the average level is exceedingly easy in cataclysm. Someone who doesn't know how to play their class is either too lazy or too uncaring to work to improve themselves (Or maybe they just suck at video games in general, poor hand-eye coordination?, I don't know how it works, but even then you don't have to be a video game savant to know proper gearing choices) You can do competitive dps while clicking, or in some cases facerolling (arcane mages). The only real thing that could affect you that you might not be able to change is the quality of your computer or your internet connection, but even then it wouldn't affect you overmuch in a 5 man. Even the most "casual" player has plenty of time in the game to open up a webpage. 15 minutes in a que, crafting 20 gems, taking a flight path, the opportunities are endless.
Bottom line is, someone who doesn't understand the basic mechanics had to make an active choice somewhere along the way that being adequate is simply too much effort for them, and they are either above that or that it isn't important to them to play their class properly. As I said before, I don't even have as high requirements for people in randoms as most exceptional players, but if they want to be inadequate it is a choice they made, and their 15$ a month, but when they decide to play with other people and force them to work harder to carry their slack, that warrants absolutely zero respect from me. If a co-worker gets paid the same amount as you, and does no work and just twiddles his thumbs all day, would you be happy because you have to do both jobs for no extra pay in order to meet a deadline? No, of course you wouldn't.
The least they could do is apologize for their poor dps and say they are working on it, I would be happy with that, but they don't, I have not once seen a player do that. I even have apologized for poor dps myself because I was in the dungeon only to level a pet (back when they needed levels). They never feel the problem is themselves, and if you comment on their low dps they simply just call you an elitist and say they are "casual", or tell you to get a life. This is my most common experience with the average WoW player.
After YEARS of experience and helping a lot of people, you too will find that most of the players you TRY to help will respond to you negatively, because as I stated above, they simply don't WANT to improve, because either it is not important to them, or they feel they are perfect and anyone trying to tell them otherwise are elitest jerks. If they wanted to improve, they would have already done it. It isn't just the experienced players who are rude and offensive, MOST players on online games are like that. And as the amount of inexperienced players is SIGNIFICANTLY larger than experienced players, the majority of the rude players in the game ARE inexperienced, it is just math.
Let me give an example:
Hunters are the most played class, at last time I checked about 20% of the population. It might be off some, but by the end of the example you will see it doesn't really matter, so of about 12 million subscribers, you might say 2,400,000 play a hunter.
This website, a fairly popular hunter-specific forum that people gather to share ideas and improve themselves… has 1681 members.
That means that ~.07% of hunters in the game post here. If you even multiply the member number by a huge factor of 15 to account for lurkers, which is probably extremely over-shooting it, it is 1.05% of total hunters in the game visit this website.
Naturally, a hunter who comes here is probably looking to improve himself and is generally friendly, that is why they are here. So, on average, out of 100 hunters you encounter, maybe one would be friendly and open to change.
Now, this is just a very, very, very rough example, but I think you can see my point.
So, when you see an experienced player being upset with someone for not doing their job properly, it is not always an elitist jerk bashing on a poor, defenseless newbie. A lot of times it is in fact the other way around, you just never see it that way because players who go the extra mile to be exceptional are actually a small minority of the WoW population, so the amount of experienced players complaining about rude inexperienced players would naturally be insignificant compared to the amount of inexperienced players complaining about experienced ones, which is what you always see.
That is why experienced players don't help others in-game. They don't want help, and as such if you try to help a person who doesn't want it, he/she will probably respond poorly. Thus, I don't bother helping people in game, I help people on forums because I know they are looking for help, and it is far more efficient than one at a time.
I am not a saint, and if someone annoys me I will annoy them right back, so don't think that I am a cruel overlord who goes out of my way to kick innocent people when they are down. After YEARS of attempting to help people, and having 99 out of 100 either not caring or insulting you for trying to help, you too wouldn't bother. Sure I could help someone every now and then, but I am not going to bother because of the other 99, it is a waste of effort.
So I make fun of people who do less dps than my pet. Who cares? It is their own fault, and if I tried to help them they would either not care, not bother to listen, or just insult me anyways. This is coming from my experience with others.
And it is damn funny. I mean, come on… "Yo man, my CAT does more dps than you!" lmao…. That is gold, and It isn't like my cat is doing super dps because I am good or anything, it just attacks the same as it does for any hunter, so it isn't like saying "LOLOL I DO 5X UR DPS U IM AMAZING".
September 26, 2010
So I make fun of people who do less dps than my pet. Who cares?
This is exactly where we differ. I can understand you feel jaded and can't be bothered offering help because you've had your nose rubbed in it so often. I believe the Dungeon Finder tries to find players of similar iLevel but sometimes a less well geared player is placed into a group, and yeah it can suck when that undergeared player is the tank, but it's Deeps' job to watch their agro too.
But to answer the question that I quoted above... I do.
May 6, 2010
Bandet, I know you won't care but you have lost the benefit of my doubt. I'm done thinking "Maybe he really is helpful but just grumpy." No....you're a jerk. The kind of jerk that makes this game not fun for people.
Before you go back to the hole you crawled out of known as the Official WoW Forums, I want you to answer the one question I have repeatedly asked and you have repeatedly refused to answer:
"If you do so much dps as the tank that you out-dps the rest of the group, how is the boss getting away from you to wipe them?"
"At the end of the day, only two things matter: intelligence, phat lewtz and survivalfulness!"
A boss can kill someone without having aggro on them.
Oh fire, its hot. Should I move out of it? Nah… *dead*
So, in a situation where they all die due to various fight mechanics or void zones, not due to all of them gaining aggro (How would the healer gain aggro anyways?) except for my blood dk, depending on the boss I can usually solo it with proper use of cooldowns and understanding of the boss fight, but mainly due to the vastly overpowered self healing of the blood dk, it just takes a few minutes, as I lost 3 dps.
Oh, and naturally I have already tried to res someone with raise ally (if this was a time period in which DK's had that, and it wasn't on CD from the last boss) and they already died a second time.
Now, I can't do this on every fight, it is usually dependent on the boss fight, but a lot of them I can.
So, you know, in a minute in or so, they start yelling at me to just wipe it, but it is a boss I can kill so w/e. I generally tend to refrain from dying in any means available. This is mostly habit that comes from years of raiding on a hunter where everyone but me typically is forced to die every boss fight. (Yay feign death!)
Then after I was victorious, instead of congratulating me on my prowess, they (the guys who died in the fire) complain to me for wasting THEIR time by not wiping (iknorite?) and votekick me.
So, yeah, I guess it is just me being a jerk?
September 26, 2010
I apologise (on behalf of myself, only… (but also anybody else who thinks the same) that your thread has somehow turned into a "Kick Bandet" fest.
The main reason I enjoy this entire website so much is that we, as a hunter community, have selectively and separately decided not to buy into vilification of anyone found on other fora we have all seen elsewhere. Lately, I have found myself reacting to Bandet's point of view in a way I am less than proud of. I sincerely apologise, and the next post I make on this thread will be on topic. I promise.
Bandet, I apologise to you too, for I have fallen into the trap of lauding my own beliefs and attitudes as superior to another's. You have a right to think as you do, and I respect that. You have certainly provided a fistful if not an armful of very helpful advice on other threads, and for this, I thank your contribution, and sincerely hope to see more of the same.
To all other Lodgers, lets get back to what we do best… help, educate and amuse each other on all things huntery.
April 10, 2010
Well sigh…apparently the folks won't listen to ol' Agio n move on. Darrwyn is correct-oh it pains me to type that Everyone plays and views the game differently, be it what they deem matters to importance-how this could be important I do not know but it seems 'tis to many.
But enough of all of this silliness I sez. This is WoW board material, not Lodge material. It's dragging down both the Lodge's and our elitist hunter coolness factor and we cannot have that. So let's have a big hugfest (in a manly way of course) and talk about important things, me for example.
Not knowing you aren't supposed to be able to achieve something often ensures that you will. Book of Agio 22:2
August 17, 2011
Since this thread has devolved into "What is fair?" in terms of kicking someone from a group, here is my input on that:
I have already described nearly all the reasons I might want to kick someone from a group due to them being unprepared to be in that specific instance at that time. Apparently, for this I have been insulted, and told that my "minimum level" was elitest, and people should not be kicked for being unprepared.
Here is what I think is a logical argument some might go through when deciding whether or not a kick is just:
This example, is taken from lawman30's original post, for which he claims he was unfairly kicked for skinning mobs with the intention on selling them. Person A is obviously lawman.
Two people have stories, person A and person B
Person A's story:
Group A division(Person A's group):
1. member 1(Person A): skins for leather to sell, as he has no LW he wouldn't use it for anything else.
2. member 2: skins for leather to make leather goods.
3. members 3-5
So member 2 is like hey, that guy is a skinner too, of course he is naturally annoyed, as if there was no other skinner he would be free to skin everything. However, he doesn't complain as likely the other person is equally as annoyed. He is content that the other guy is being fair and only skinning every other mob.
Heroics are boring, and a lot of time people who have just met wouldn't talk about much, as an icebreaker, member 2 decides to bring up member 1's skinning, as they obviously have common ground. Member 1 says he does not have LW and is simply skinning to sell. He only uses the skinning profession for the bonus.
So, three options here:
Member 2 is:
a. Not currently at maxed leatherworking, and is skinning to get materials to level it. They monsters don't belong to either member in the group, but it is like rolling need on an item to vendor it/disenchant it when someone else needs it, if he intends on eventually crafting gear to use, but he currently cannot as he is not high enough level. In which case, he could be annoyed as he is impacted by member 1's desire to make gold.
b. Is simply skinning to craft goods and sell them, as depending on what you make, would be higher profit than just selling the skins. (Or he is making items to disenchant, and then sell the materials, either way he is selling a finished product). In this case, he is not annoyed by member 1s action, as he is doing the same thing, just he is doing it more efficiently and making a higher profit. He has no right to all of the monsters, they belong to the group. If they were on the same server, they could arrange to craft member 1s skins into equipment so that he can sell it or disenchant it for a higher profit. Most likely, they are not on the same server so this is impossible.
c. Is skinning to craft a piece of gear he will use. Similarly to option A, he is using the dead mobs, which are property of the groups, to equip himself. Member 1 is depriving him of gear upgrades due to his desire for wealth, similarly to how someone might roll need on an item to get it for disenchanting/vendoring when a member of the group would actually use the item, and be deprived of an upgrade for someone else's greed.
So, if the situation is A or C, member 1 is in fact, being greedy. Most likely, member 1 does not know what situation member 2 is in, so it isn't his fault.
Member 2 now has three options once he realizes member 1 is just trying to make a profit:
1. If he is in situation A or C, he can ask member 1 nicely to not skin because it is depriving him of upgrades, as member 1 likely did not know.
2. If he is in situation B, he could lie and say he is in situation A or C, and he can ask member 1 nicely to not skin because it is depriving him of upgrades, and hope member 1 falls for it so he can make more profit than if he did nothing.
3. He can do nothing, as for whatever reason, he feels that it is simply not a big deal, or that he is in situation B and is not a dishonest individual.
Now, if member 2 claims to be in situation A or C, member 1 has no way of knowing if he is telling the truth.
So Member 1 has three options:
1. If member 2 is claiming to be situation A, member 1 can armory him and see what level his profession is at. If it is maxed, he knows he is lying. If it isn't, it could be that he is telling the truth, or that armory hasn't updated, and that he actually is maxed, member 2 has no real way of knowing, but he has no proof of dishonesty, or guarantee of honesty.
2. If member 2 claims to be in situation C, member 1 could ask him what piece of gear, and then see for himself if that piece of gear is an upgrade by inspecting member 2.
2a. If the piece of gear is for an alt, it is generally considered bad manners to take something from a group for acharacter that wasn't in a group, unless no one has a use for it, so member 1 can generally guilt-free disregardmember 2s request to have all the skins. He also has no guarantee that member 2 is not lying about his alt andinstead of being a leather-wearer it is a bank toon.
2b. If member 2 says he is crafting gear that is not an upgrade to what he is wearing. Member 1 can suggest tohim that he shouldn't craft that. If member 2 insists on crafting it anyways, member 1 can disregard him becauseit is not an upgrade, and is likely lying, thus he can take the leather.
3. Regardless of what member 2 claims, member 1 has the option of disregarding him and proceeding anyways, and/or ignoring him entirely, this however makes the rest of the group less likely to take his side, as only member 2 has made any claim of legitimacy and member 1 has not provided a counter-point.
4. If member 2 makes no claims member 1 has the option to inquire on the situation.
So, now after seeing what happened, any member of the group can do any of the following:
1. They can do nothing regardless of what has transpired
2. If neither member 1 or member 2 has commented on the situation after member 2 claimed to be a LW, they are free to assume any of the situations are possible.
2a. If they decide that Member 2 has a legitimate claim, and is not dishonest, they can attempt to vote kickmember 1 for being greedy. If enough of the group came to the same conclusion, it will pass.
2b. They can decide that member 2 is just making a profit, and do nothing.
3. If any of them made a discussion on it, they now can choose who to trust was not lying. Naturally, member 1 never had much to lie about, so they can assume the only doubt is with member 2.
3a. Any member can decide to attempt a vote kick on whichever party they feel to be in the right.
3b. They could not care, and do nothing.
If a vote to kick either member is initiated, the group has these options:
1. Ignore the vote entirely. They probably won't as the stupid thing is there and annoying.
2. Support whomever they feel to be in the right based upon the evidence, or whatever they decided the actual case is likely to be.
3. They can be petty and support whoever they feel they like more, based upon any number of options. For example, if one player is a hunter, and they don't like hunters, they might vote against him. If they know one of the two personally, they will almost always take his side.
4. If they have no opinion on the matter, they might decide it is a good opportunity to get someone out of the group that they might have loot competition with. They also could decide who to keep based upon contribution to the group, if one is a healer/tank, or if one is doing poor dps that they could get replaced by someone likely to do more, or if one of them does not know the boss fights and it is slowing the group down.
So, based upon the information in the original post:
Neither member 1 or 2 made any claim on the matter.
Thus, when someone initiated a votekick, the majority who obviously voted to kick member 1 had no reliable information on the decision. So, they were either forced to take a guess on who is the honest one, or they agreed to kick him independently of the right/wrong issue, such as personal bias, or they decided it was a good opportunity to remove a low dps from the group, but obviously they couldn't have decided that he was doing low dps, as he claimed he was on the top, doing twice as much as another. Since it was a low level dungeon, it is very likely that member 2 was not maxed LW, or that he was crafting gear for himself, as a lot of the gear you can make while leveling is decent.
It cannot be considered unfair if they voted member 1 out for being greedy, as there was no evidence that member 2 was not being equally as greedy. They made a choice, if it happened to be the wrong one, they are not to blame as they did not have enough information to make an accurate decision. If they made a choice to kick independently of the conflict, such as they were friends with one, or they wanted to eliminate loot competition, it would in fact, be unfair.
However, as there was no discussion on the issue and member 1 was simply kicked, the statement that he was kicked unfairly cannot be confirmed or denied. What if member 2 was trying to craft a piece of gear or to level his profession, and not just making profit? They likely assumed this as no additional information, and based upon the level that would be the most logical assumption. We have no way of knowing for sure.
As there was no discussion, he might not have even been kicked because of the issue at all. They could have decided he should be kicked for any other reason, the proximity to the event makes it a likely cause, but we cannot confirm it.
Thus I find it EXTREMELY arrogant of someone to INSULT me, make assumptions about me, or say that I had right to be kicked fairly given the situation when they themselves make such claims of right and wrong.
And no, I never claimed anyone else was right or wrong in terms of what is fair until they began to question me.