Drop Arcane from Rotation? - Builds, Talents and Class Mechanics - Hunter Forums
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11:45 am
I was reading through some other forums trying to decide if I should regem my MM hunter for ArP and just came across the one that discussed dropping Arcane shot from rotation IF your ArP rating is high enough. My current ArP is 497 unbuffed. Does this mean I should not be using Arcane? (And they "whys" of it would be awesome!).
I recently joined a hardcore ICC raiding guild, and I cant understand why my DPS is not on par with other similarly geared hunters that I have run with. Hence the research about possibly regemming… I am now wondering if dropping Arcane might help this instead of scrapping all of my agil and attack power gems?
http://www.wowarmory.com/chara…..cn=Maliiss
I can start out strong with 7k+ dps (as high as 10k on trash pulls) but it always levels out to around 5k ish when you get to the situations where target switching is a constant. I catch a lot of heat from people who dont understand how I am only pulling 5k dps with over 5.7k gear score. (Yes i am wearing a pvp neck, i know i know…. its temporary til my ICC neck drops! lol) I know target switching seriously affects DPS, and well, hunters do a LOT of that in ICC. But there has got to be something else i'm not doing right.
My rotation is the basic kill>serpent>chim>aimed>arcane>steady priority
So whether or not I should drop arcane, AND any advice that might help with my DPS shortage would be greatly appreciated. This is my main toon, AND my favorite, I want her to be as badass as possible for my gear level ![]()
Thanks in advance…. and thanks for all the great info already presented on this site, it has been very helpful throughout my hunter career!
~Malice
1:31 pm
Grunt
July 14, 2010
OfflineI can't remember the exact point that they say you can safely drop arcane shot from your rotation. I think it's like a between this and this area and you're safe, that being said, if I remember correctly you are all ready in that area so yes you could drop it if you wanted. I dropped it when I was around 300ish ArP, but that hasn't worked for some other MM playing hunters on this site, so there in it lies with works out best for you.
Something I noticed about the rotation you posted is that you didn't mention silencing shot. It's not going to increase your DPS by heaps, but it should be in your rotation. It's been said that it's best to macro it to a shot in your rotation. Mine is macro'd to my chimera shot and possibly my aimed shot, I just can't remember if I macro'd it to two or not.
As far as your gemming goes, I'm not a big fan of gemming ArP. I think you get more overall bang for your buck with agility gems. Plus, you're talking about having to switch targets a lot, which leads me to believe that you may also be moving a lot. If you're moving a lot, most of that ArP is wasted. It's been established that it has it's best effects on auto shot (a non moving ability), steady shot (non moving again), and aimed shot(the only instant of the trio). Recently we've been talking about whether or not it effects chimera shot as well, that would give you another instant, but that's really about it. When you really get down to it, all three hunter specs really require good movement management, or better said, non excessive movement management to do their best DPS. Switching targets isn't necessarily as bad as constantly moving is for DPS.
Another DPS issue is timing. What I mean by that is making sure you're using your Improved Steady Shot buff on your chimera shots. or in the worst case scenario, at the very least you're using them with your aimed shots. A good addon to indicate when your ISS has proc'd is called Power Aura's. I'm sure there are others like the scrolling combat text ones, but I like the visual effects of power aura's.
Changing your pets spec will net you a DPS increase as well. I looked at your wolf, since that's the typically raiding pet these days. Take all the points out of the stamina, armor, boar's speed, charge, heart of the phoenix, lick your wounds and shark attack. Take one point out of rabid. Put them in cobra reflex's – maxed out, Culling the herd – maxed out, spider's bite – maxed out, call of the wild – maxed, and one point should go in wild hunt. that will be all the points you have left. you'll have to use one in rabid so you can open up the tree for wild hunt and once that happens you'll only have one point left. it's usually better spent in wild hunt. I would have to run it on the calculator, but I think those changes will net you a couple hundred DPS. If you have a hard time keeping your pet up, keep it on passive by your side. it will still do the furious howl buff, and you can still activate call of the wild, while the wolf is on passive. these are two of the main reasons to raid with a wolf as the buff your attack power.
Your spec itself looks fine, but if you're not the main marking hunter in your raid, you could probably drop at least two points out of improved hunters mark and put them in improved barrage. not sure that will net you too much DPS increase, but usually only one hunter in the run, if any, will max out the improved hunter's mark talents.
ok, glyphs are good. Your stats look good. I would change your meta to the +21 agility one. personal preference I think, but I also think it nets a few more points of DPS and it stacks with kings as well as mark of the wild. Other than that, I really think you should pick one red gem or the other. You have the AP gems, agility gems, and ArP gems and I really don't think that having just a few of one really helps that much. Picking one to maximize on it will probably help your DPS out as well. Also, you have your meta gem in a meta socket so you're not using it to meet a socket bonus. I recommend you move it to the piece of gear that will net you the best socket bonus, that's the best use of the meta gem. Lastly, are you using speed potions? The faster you're attacking the more damage you'll be doing. Time your potions between rapid fire and heroism. It doesn't really stack just like rapid fire doesn't stack with heroism, so try to use them at separate times to get the most bang for your buck.
Sorry if this seems like so much, it's what I noticed that might help though…
good luck and happy hunting!!!
1:40 pm
Lodge Muse
July 3, 2010
OfflineHi hun,
Just offering what has worked for me, based upon what you have for gear. Take everythign I say with a grain of salt as I am still learning as well.
With my gear, I find it helpful to drop Arcane from my rotation at around 330 arpen. Give and take what drops, I am fluctuating between 300 and 450 arp, and really really have to watch when it gets into the low 300's as I do notice a DPS loss without using arcane below 330. (I am also an ardent user of Femaledwarf.com)
I find too that I start out around 14K at the beginning of fights (trash mobs mean nothing) as it's mainly Super Crits to the Rescue. I am currently settled in comfortably around 8K overall, and my damage for the raid is pretty high. I am usually in the top 10 in 25 mans, and as my gear gets better (one of the charity cases in this group) I hope to start routinely going around 10K. It's the longer term boss fights, and overall raid damage, that really matters to me. This is what I would recommend, and let me know if it helps:
- Drop arcane from your rotation, unless you drop below 350 arpen, then test it avidly at both femaledwarf.com as well as the test dummies and in real fights. It's easy to pop back in.
- Move your attack power and arpen gems to straight agility in red and blue slots, and agi/crit in the yellow slots.
- It looks like you are over the hit cap by a considerable amount, which is so easy to do as a hunter, lately. Get rid of the Mark of Supremacy and try and pick up the Herkumi War Token at the very least. All that extra hit is just a wasted stat, so that trinket is basically doing nothing in that slot. Given your talents, aim for I think 263 hit rating, especially since you have it in spades in your gear. I have the same problem, it's been… interesting. lol
This is my rotation: Silencing – SS – Chim – Aimed – SS, kill and silencing when up. I hit Rapid Fire at the start of a pull, then Readiness about 20 seconds into it. On the longer boss fights, I can use them both again right about the time that Bloodlust is called for, and pop a speed pot to add to all of it.
I haven't looked at talents or glyphs yet, I am not as good as some of the guys here, and have a daughter pulling at me. I would start with that, and hopefully others will chime in soon as well.
1:49 pm
Grunt
July 14, 2010
OfflineSorry I'm back so quickly, but Niika mentioned something that caught my interest.
Readiness.
You'll have to try it both ways to see which you like better, but my use of readiness is different than Niika's. I wait for Kill Shot to light up (boss at 20%), and then I do this:
Kill Shot, Chimera, Aimed, Readiness, Kill Shot, Chimera, Aimed, rapid fire.
If those three shot's aren't available when kill shot first becomes useable, I usually wait until they all three are so I can do that run of shots. Usually when KS first becomes useable you're in no danger of the boss dieing so you have some wiggle room…
food for thought, let us know which way you use readiness as you might be doing something we should be trying 
1:52 pm
Helz… Thank you a ton for your very thorough response!
Ok, I do use SS whenever it is up, but a macro would be fantastic, I will look into that, thank you. The ONE ArP gem I have currently was due to gettin those bracers in ICC just yeaterday, and that was the only red gem cut the available JC had… so I just went with it, rather than leave it empty for the rest of the run. I do plan to throw an Agi in there when i log in tonight. I had started throwing AP gems in there awhile back to experiment with gemming, didnt really notice any difference on the dummies, so I never switched them back. Luckily I have a xmuter alt so I will go back to all agi on your advice ![]()
I use scrolling battle text for procs and such, but I have heard power auras is a little more pleasant in appearance, perhaps I will give that a try!
The pet changes I think will prove invaluable! I hadnt considered changing that, he is the pet I leveled with and didnt know wtf I was doing back then… lol.
And for this new raiding guild I am the only hunter (even in 25's w00t) so I need to keep IHM I think. I occasionally pop speed pots, but not often enough i'm sure. Always got the flask of endless rage going, and either fish feast or mega mammoth meal.
Thank you again! I am ever so thankful for your advice. I will make some changes and let you know how it goes ![]()
~Malice
3:24 pm
Ha! both of yall's replies came while I was typing mine LOL… Niika, TY
I am currently saving my frost for the war token. About halfway there and now that I have my new bracers, dropping the mark will only put me like 5pts under hit. Thats the only reason I hadnt dropped it yet, did not want to fall too far below hit.
I use the same readiness strat as Helz… I find it a nice way to finish off a boss!
Thank you both, i'm looking forward to putting the kids to bed so I can log in and make some much needed changes!
~Malice
The advice Helz and Niika gave was spot on.
I was all set to leave a response, then as I was reading through Helz's initial response I realized most of it was already addressed. Less work for me!
I highly suggest Power Auras as an addon that may help improve your overall performance and DPS. Check out my Power Auras page after you download it. I have several auras in there ready to go, including one for Improved Steady Shot. This addon really heps you manage procs and so forth.
One last thing… to squeeze a couple drops of extra DPS out of a boss fight, you can pre-pot just before combat starts and still be able to use another during the fight.
Cheers.
10:42 pm
Ok I got power auras but good lord, that seems complicated… TY! Gar for the link and luckily my husband uses it so I can bribe him to help me config it.
I made all the immediate changes I could (gems/pet respec/macro silence to chimera/switched back to my lower gs DPS neck) and then made a go of the arcane-less rotation on the dummies… the outcome was not good! Overall the changes were a great improvement, but dropping arcane cuts my DPS by about 300pts. Havent tried it in a instance or raid situation yet, but I plan to. On the upside, I was able to out DPS our guilds boomkin for the first time, WITH arcane still included. That is a huge feat for me lol!
So far I am extremely happy with the changes yall suggested (but still on the fence about arcane, need to play wit it more), so THANK YOU all very much
Cant wait to see how our continuation of ICC25 goes on monday.
~Malice
12:51 am
Lodge Muse
July 3, 2010
OfflineI agree; arcane is one of those that may or may not work for you, but it's easy to pop it back in. I can't say it enough, but i use femaledwarf.com to play with the numbers. I also find out that the test dummys for me are pretty inaccurate, however, femaledwarf is.
As for the rapid-readiness, thank you for the tip; on that second use, I had not thought about waiting for the kill shot to go off. I will give that a try. I did want to note that I typically am in fights longer than 3 mins, so am able to get it off twice, so that I get two rapid fires off at the beginning of a fight, then two more off at the end. Maybe there is a better time for me to use it just once during a fight, I am not sure and would like guidance.
Gar, I so try and pop that speed pot pre-fight, but i'm such a bad judge of when to hit it with the tank we have. I wish there was a PA for that.
8:46 am
Garwulf said:
Until you get Zod's, I'd keep it in there. You're on the razor's edge of an arcane-less priority being a boost, so I suggest still using it. You can't go wrong really – especially on fights that require movement.
Ahhh yes the infamous bow! I am keeping my eyes peeled for that badboy… so I should wait til I get it to consider dropping arcane again… got it!
Niika, I did take the time yesterday to punch every dang number into famaledwarf (usually use RAWR, but figured i'd give this one a try) and I like it. Seemed pretty dang accurate and I plan to make better use of it now as RAWR cannot be trusted for gem suggestions!
Yall are awesome, Thank you again!
~Malice
Niika said:
Gar, I so try and pop that speed pot pre-fight, but i'm such a bad judge of when to hit it with the tank we have. I wish there was a PA for that.
Just pop it as the tank's running towards the boss. It's better to chug it 2-3 seconds early than to not have the effect at all.
Also, there are a lot of fights that have scripted intros which will allow you to be able to gauge it pretty well.
3:28 pm
Lodge Muse
July 3, 2010
OfflineThanks, i'll try that. i didn't know if the first hit starts when the tank was running or not. That little pallie zappy thing seems to set it off.
I love femaledwarf.com. It's dead on with every suggestion that Tak, and Helz, and Gar have given me here, as well. I've doubled my dps in a month.
5:03 am
Grunt
July 14, 2010
OfflineI agree, I've always used the femaledwarf site since I found it. I recently started using RAWR, but more to see what types of gear combinations and gems I would want to plug into the FD site. That's how I found out that I could increase a little here and there by putting in the AGI/Crit gems that Niika is fond of suggesting. I also have never used the test dummy's to gauge DPS, but rather, I use them to get my rotations down. How I want my shots to go and when to pop certain cooldowns.
Best advice I could probably give in this area, I wouldn't rely on any site or how your DPS feels on a test dummy to make your final decision. Go with what feels good and feels like it works to you.
6:41 am
Lodge Muse
July 3, 2010
OfflineThat's what i use the test dummies for as well. I find FD to be a much better represention of what I am doing in fights than the target dummies. On my lock and dk, yes, it's pretty accurate. For Niika, not so much. But since she has the most complex shot useage of all my characters, it's awesome to have something to get the feel of it under my skin.
Helz, I was using agi/crit due to Gar's advice from a long time ago (before I opened my mouth up in the forums here), then spoke with another hunter who told me I had to go all agi. I did, suffered a drop over two weeks to make sure, and went running to Orgrimmar to pick up ametrines. Couldn't cut the damn things fast enough. Now I sound like a broken wheel, hope it doesn't bother. lol
4:36 pm
Lodge Muse
July 3, 2010
Offlinehehehee I liken Rawr to a shopping mall. It's fun to check out a recommended item, then start dreaming or planning for it. Stats are always adjusting, always changing, but it is always fun to go shopping at the mall! OK, so it's not Vickies, but it's so much fun to drool over new weapons!
Niik
7:38 pm
*UPDATE*
Just wanted to say thank you again and let yall know that after taking all of the advice presented here and testing out both a non-arcane rotation as well as one with arcane included on Rot and Fester in icc 25 tonight, I am elated to report that the non-arcane is the way to go, AND instead of starting high and settling into 5k dps as usual, I maintained a happy 7.5k single target dps all night!
I couldnt be more pleased or more grateful for the help!
~Malice
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